best picture (RGB,s-video,ect)

[Welshwuff]

Im experimenting with different cables i can get my hands on to see which is the clearest screen that can be achieved. Sadly i don't have access to everything i wanna try but i thought i'd share my findings and wanna hear what others are doing. just to say, im not a tecky person, this is a simpleton's findings.

I have 2 HDTVs so obviously not the best choice for retro consoles, that would be CRT TVs however space tells me i already have enough big things in my house so i gotta make do. Before today, i had been using gamecube Composite cables (red,white,yellow) for the SNES, N64 and Gamecube, however i had enough and did alittle research. I came to beleive that S-video was what i needed, however it turns out s-video gamecube cables are a bitch to find, however i did find a RGB scart for £3. The difference between a regular scart and a RGB scart is like the difference between component and composite, that said it made a HUGE difference! Gamecube looks brilliant an RGB cable! however i then tried it with the N64 and SNES which did not really work, the SNES showed the nintendo logo crisp and beautiful for a moment before fading next to black. After alittle research i found all you have to do is open up the scart plug and remove the 3 compacitors inside and solder the loose wires back in place, details here http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/pal-snes-rgb.htm, after that, wow, stunning picture! Saddly though, the N64 still didnt work as it does not support a RGB output. Im hoping s-video will work instead though.

So my current set up to my 32 inch HDTV is:
NES - common red and yellow composite cables, looks **** aweful
SNES - Gamecube RGB scart (modded, removed compacitors), fantastic
N64 - Gamecube Composite cable, not great
Gamecube - Gamecube RGB scart, crisp and wonderful
Wii - Wii Composite cable, perfect

What i really want to know is how does RGB compare to s-video? Can anyone shed some light on that or maybe have a spare s-video gamecube cable they can send me to mess with?

[Lord Innit]

I think you've mixed up your composite and components. Composite is the red white yellow lead.
If you have an RGB lead for the gamecube, don't bother with an s-video one as RGB is sharper. You can get a component lead for the Gamecube, but they fetch a pretty penny nowadays.

[BuckoA51]

Ah the quest for the perfect HDTV picture, it's nearly bankrupted me.

In a nutshell, picture quality goes like this, from worst to best:-

RF
Composite
S-Video
RGB

Now, here's where it gets tricky, for 240p and 480i/576i RGB SCART can be a (tiny tiny fraction) better than component, but, component can do progressive scan, which is highly desirable for HDTVs, so, component goes next:-

Component.

The problems you had with the Nintendo consoles is due to the fact that while they all use the same connector, they all need a slightly different kind of wiring to work best. The N64 doesn't output RGB at all without a mod (that can only be done to NTSC consoles).

You can also RGB modify the NES but it's extremely difficult. It's one of the few systems I emulate due to it only having composite output.

On your Wii I take it you mean /component/ cable? The Wii's component output is actually pretty poor, but you want to use it because it supports progressive scan.

Finally, if you want an even better picture from your HDTV, you'd need to consider an upscaler like the XRGB3 (fiddly to use, low compatibility but lovely low input lag) or the XRGB Mini (easy to use but has slightly more input lag).

Check out my site for more info on any of the above!

[Cauterize]

Over the last few years I've found myself leaving HDTVs behind and hunting down Sony Trinitron CRT TVs to get the ultimate picture. RGB Scart is without a doubt the way to go and nothing quite beats enjoying retro games on a smaller screen from back in the day.

If you do want to go down the HD route though, I'd recommend getting an XRGB as BuckoA51 says, but they're not the most friendliest of devices.

[BuckoA51]

Well it's certainly nice to be able to play all your old systems perfectly on a HDTV. It's also nice to have 1 TV that can do all systems from retro to modern. It's cool to see retro on a screen bigger than you could get in CRT....

...You need to consider though, I've spent must be over a grand on upscalers and stuff over the years and you could get a CRT for what? Probably free half the time since people throw them out. Not to mention CRT's are input lag free. Don't have to go to the lengths I have, but still even the XRGB Mini is way more expensive than a free CRT !

Cauterize, Bang and Olufsen CRT's are also lovely, btw, and people even throw them out.

I love my setup but I'd still have a CRT too if I had space!

[Welshwuff]

Space is indeed the biggest issue... retro and modern just dont wanna play together most the time. Its easy as feck if you just look for CRTs on Gumtree, lots of 28-32 inche screens going for between £10-£30, brilliant! but alas space, so im having to make do with the HDTV, which isn't so bad really for SNES on RGB, but gamecube is rather blurry even with RGB, but then I just use the Wii with Component instad for that. N64 i still have no comment on but got an S-video on it's way for that. Upscalers are an idea but probably only add to the already noticable button delay. In a perfect situation it seems having 2 TVs, one HD and one CRT is the best solutions but you have to deside if you want to compromise the space.... I cant see someone having just a CRT, if your gonna have one tv, its gotta be a HDTV to be future proof.

[Lord Innit]

. N64 i still have no comment on but got an S-video on it's way for that.

I recently played my NTSC N64 through S-Video on our 42" Sony LCD and was pleasantly surprised. I thought it was going to be awful, but the colours were vibrant and the picture was overall pretty good.

[BuckoA51]

Upscalers are an idea but probably only add to the already noticable button delay.

Upscalers can actually reduce input lag (I take it that is what you mean by button delay) here's why. When you connect a SNES to your HDTV, it treats the progressive scan image (288p for PAL games) as interlace. Proper deinterlacing causes massive amounts of input lag, even turning on game mode only does so much. A properly engineered upscaler that recognizes the signal correctly is highly desirable. XRGB Mini adds a disappointing 24ms of lag (still likely faster than letting your TV deinterlace) XRGB3 adds just a couple of milliseconds.

but the colours were vibrant and the picture was overall pretty good.

Biggest issues come when the picture moves, since the set tries to deinterlace what is already a progressive image, adding input lag and messing up scrolling and shadows on a lot of games.

[FamiDude]

NES - common red and yellow composite cables, looks **** aweful

Shouldn't look that bad. My Famicom looks decent on my 43" Plasma through composite and it's essentially the same hardware.

[BuckoA51]

Mine goes from poor on a static image to dreadful during scrolling. It looks OK via the Framemeister (big improvement) but still leaves a lot to be desired.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

The type of cable which suits best depends on the console. RGB is best for any consoles up till 7th gen. If the console doesn't have an RGB output but has composite, go for that. It's really best not to use the aeriel cables because they give inferior sound and quality with only mono sound.

Anything 7th gen or after, use component or HDMI. The Wii is best with component and it's the highest quality cable you can get for it. With PS3 and 360 HDMi is best.

I have to say, after being quite a perfectionist when it comes to picture and sound quality for my games, I've found the perfect TV and set up. I actually don't use it for HD consoles, but it also works perfectly with those too!

The Sony Bravia 22EX310 22 inch is amazing for retro gaming. For one, it's easy to tune and set up for aerial/RF cables whilst many new TV's are harder to tune due to being digital nowadays.

It also has a great SCART socket which works wonders with older consoles. I've hooked up my Mega Drive and my GameCube and they look fantastic. It has component cable slots (the R/Y/B/G/R ones) for the Wii and that looks crisp and clean too. It has two HDMI slots for the Xbox and PS3 or whatever device you want to attach, built in headphones jack, the usual old R/Y/W cable sockets for older consoles that don't use SCART/RBG slots too. The only thing it's missing is an S-Video which no one uses do they?

As a plus, it also has left and right audio out connection points for HiFi systems and a PC input too.

It has a range of settings, of which I can give advice and help with, though it's easy to set up. It even has a gaming preset picture style which works great for older consoles to give them smoother images if you like to have your games a little less sharp but still with good detail. Bearing in mind many older games are built specificaly with slightly blurer low quality pictures in mind this is particular useful. The Mega Drive is known for this. Games like Sonic and The Lion King take advantage of a visual effect called dithering (see http://retro-sanctuary.com/comparisons%20-%20differing.html%20%20) which means that the softer the image, the better some games will look. It's good to have a happy medium.

I'll upload some photos if anyone wants?

£300 it cost me, and frankly it's the ultimate TV for everything, especially gaming. I love it.

[BuckoA51]

If it doesn't have RGB output use S-Video, that's a country mile better than composite.

The very best gaming TV's Sony ever made are the KDL series, eg the KDL-32W400 or the KDL-40Z4500. What makes these TV's so special is there almost complete lack of input lag in game mode, a stunning 0-10 ms. You still need to pair them with a good upscaler for 240p/288p content of course.

The Sony Bravia 22EX310 22 inch is amazing for retro gaming

If you're happy that's great, but as with any HDTV you're still getting 240/288p converted to 480i and all the problems that causes. A CRT will still trounce it for retro.

It even has a gaming preset picture style which works great for older consoles to give them smoother images

The gaming preset is there to reduce input lag by turning picture processing off. Without it lag will spike on interlace content (which as far as the TV is concerned is all your retro stuff).

The only thing it's missing is an S-Video which no one uses do they?

N64? Commodore 64? I don't think the Bravia's are missing S-Video anyway, check the manual it's probably there on the SCART.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

To be totally honest I've been gaming for about 17/18 years, and three quarters of that was on a CRT. There's really no difference when plugging, say- the Mega Drive- in to the SONY I have. I'm so so picky with the sets and combinations I use too. I sit for literally hours scanning my settings and images for issues. Perhaps behind the scenes 240/288p converted to 480i isn't the best idea (I have no idea how it works) but it makes no difference to the screen and picture quality itself. If anything, Mega Drive games look clearer and more vibrant, with pixel perfect images displayed.

Can't quite vouch for older consoles though, because the oldest one I use is the Mega Drive, but I really don't have a problem. The screen can also be changed to accomodate the borders around the outer of the screen for PAL games, effectively eliminating them whilst gaining a larger image.

I'm really not technical, but I only see improvements.

Also, I don't think the gaming present accounts for lag input, I'm pretty sure it just adjusts the sharpness, brightness, colour and other small settings to a level which SONY believe is best for gaming- pretty much set to how they want people to play the PS3. All I use it for is the Mega Drive because it's a pretty sharp image through the RGB and it helps soften it for that dithering effect to look a little better.

As for S-Video, my Bravia doesn't have it. I'm in the UK, whereas as I'm aware it's more NTSC regions that use this often, so it's not a standard over here. My last TV had it, but then, my last TV was awful, didn't display the Mega Drive properly at all and had various issues with certain 60htz images (especially when older games were forced 60htz like Zelda I & II on the GameCube Zelda Collectors Edition- they didn't display at all).

[BuckoA51]

Perhaps behind the scenes 240/288p converted to 480i isn't the best idea (I have no idea how it works) but it makes no difference to the screen and picture quality itself.

It makes a huge difference, converting 240/288p to 480i effects a lot of things, scrolling, drop shadows, input lag and more. Look how the set blurs the pixels during scrolling in games. This page explains it best http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ You absolutely cannot beat a CRT for retro stuff.

I'm really not technical, but I only see improvements.

If you're happy then great, but it's definitely not as good as a CRT. Once you've used a proper linedoubler you'll wonder how you ever kidded yourself into thinking it was OK the way it was.

Also, I don't think the gaming present accounts for lag input

The gaming mode is to minimise input lag, it turns off all picture processing. You can still manually set things like sharpness if you want to. The thing with input lag is you might not notice it, but it may still affect your game.

As for S-Video, my Bravia doesn't have it.

I'm almost certain the Bravia's support S-video on their SCART sockets, mine does, and I don't see why Sony would remove it.

[BuckoA51]

Just checked, Bravia 22EX310 does have S-video on it's SCART socket, though it only has one SCART making it inconvenient to use I guess. (see http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4288091112.pdf)

[SpeedStarTMQ]

That link is password protected, is there any other way?

I'm talking about the right thing, right? S-Video? That little round slot you connect a games console to a TV with? My Bravia absolutely does not have one of those.

[BuckoA51]

Password?? Odd, the link opens just fine for me.

Yes, S-Video is supported on your Bravia TV via its SCART socket.

[Lord Innit]

That link is password protected, is there any other way?

I'm talking about the right thing, right? S-Video? That little round slot you connect a games console to a TV with? My Bravia absolutely does not have one of those.

Many TV's have a scart socket that accept the S-Video signal. It doesn't have to be the little round connecter.

[hydr0x]

That link is password protected, is there any other way?

I'm talking about the right thing, right? S-Video? That little round slot you connect a games console to a TV with? My Bravia absolutely does not have one of those.

The Bravia supports S-Video signal via its SCART-connector. Just use a real S-Video to SCART adapter and you should be fine.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Ah right, I understand now thanks!