Pirate games vs buying second hand

[chocklo]

Was thinking the other day when I watched an episode of the IT Crowd (the one with the cannibal).

The episode emphasises the 'hard line' message communicated in the anti piracy ads. Aside from being illegal, the argument normally moves on to the Film Industry and artists etc. losing money (or rather having it 'stolen' from them - they would have you believe).

That got me thinking, is the 2nd hand market just as bad? If you go in to CEX and buy a current gen game, the game creators see no royalties. Same for retro games. In fact, buying retro games means that there's no real need to get them on my wii as well)

So, is buying a second hand game as morally incorrect as purchasing a second hand game?

Does this mean that we shouldn't buy 2nd hand games or does it subtley suggest that actually, downloading old games isn't actually that serious a crime?

Obviously, I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing used games myself, just interesting to hear what you peeps think.

........right, back to my conf call....

[Collz69]

as far as used games go, the developers & publishers recieved their money when they sold the product in the first place.
once you purchase something then it becomes your property & you can do whatever you want with it, including sell it.

a lot of the games I own, I also have on Wii VC, I dont know why, maybe its because I like to physically own the item.
I have a SuperUFO pro & I backup all my games to that, so I could in fact sell my cartridges of Turtles in Time & Super Castlevania because these have no save game files & I could still play them, but I dont, in fact its much easier to plug in the SuperUFO & play the games off a list, but I always find myself playing the actual cartridge.

as far as used current gen stuff is concerned, I think the industry has started to realise that they will make more money by restricting the sale of used games, for example, there are some games like resident evil on 3DS that only allow one save game to be created (correct me if im wrong) & there are rumours that the new PS & XBOX may restrict the use of games to one console, that way you cant resell games.
hopefully this wont be the case as this would seriously hurt the games industry in the long term.

[Squarewave]

Buying second hand also damages the economy because there is no VAT due.

Oh well.


Nathan.

[UltraMagnus]

Developers should just shut up about the 2nd hand market. They make money of the initial sales. Once I buy the game it is mine and I can resell it if I want.

If anyone working for any developer who complains about this then I would expect them not to have ever bought a 2nd hand car, TV, furniture, clothes, DVD, electronics or music, because if they have they are hypocrites.

[UltraMagnus]

Buying second hand also damages the economy because there is no VAT due.

Oh well.


Nathan.

Actually thats totally the opposite. selling 2nd hand keeps money in circulation. Imagine this scenario. Person A wants a new game but has no money. Person Persons B and C want a certain game but refuses to pay full price. In this situation the money is stagnant..

Now bring the 2nd hand market into it and Person A sells 2 2nd hand games to Person B and C. Then A uses the money to buy New Game. Meaning money has went to the developer that would never normally have done so.

Same as trading in store. Person A does not have enough money for a new game, so he trades in 2 old games plus Money for a new game. The developer still sess his full cut from the retailer despite the fact the customer traded in. In fact the trade in created a sale where there would not normally be one.

Its basic economics, 2nd hand markets help create revenue to be spent on new products. If the 2nd hand market did not exist a lot of people simply could not afford to keep buying brand new games. people selling 2nd hand helps create funds.

The develoers only look at this from one angle. They only see the money from the customer going to the retailer and saying wheres my cut, but they are not looking at the % of money going from the original seller back into developers pockets when its being used to buy a new game.

I read somewhere that satistically its quite high that people trading in old games are doing so to fund the purchase of a brand new release.

[Squarewave]

* Feeling the burn*

I guess that the fact that the likes of CEX manage to make money from 2nd hand games creates jobs too.


Nathan.

[Wizbiscuit]

I have to agree with UltraMagnus, since Game started scamming you on trade-ins (ie giving nothing even close to the worth) my purchase of games has declined.

I still buy new games, but in the past there might be a title I fancy (rather than want), and I would trade a few unwanted titles for it, now I just do without.

Positive side effect though is I am finding myself playing my games to the end now, where before I always seemed to have something new looking at me.

As has been said further up though, my game, I purchased it, I own it, I should be able to sell it if I like, unsure what the game industry thinks its playing at saying its wrong.

I don't think pirating a game though is ever correct, its just outright stealing, people who pirate should stop with all there crappy reasons, its all crap, its stealing end of. If you don't like DRM don't buy it, if you don't like DLC that should be in the game, don't buy it. I have found myself keeping away from Capcom games, as they seem to be the worse offender, again not that I am making a point, just I don't think they are offering good value.

Sorry, think I am just waffling...

[maD_mAN1983]

pirating is bad for the industry in some way, but if it was not for pirated games i would most likely not buy any pc games at all, because i download pirated games to see if it is worth buying, and if i think it is a good game and i like it, i will buy it, atleast that is what i did before, now i usually only play on console and i don't want to mod my consoles, so no pirated games for me on them.

and what ultramagnus says i totaly agree with

[Revolg]

It sure is bad that the Devs make no money because of the second hand market but lets face facts in difficult time like now there are plenty of people that cannot afford to go out and spend £40+ on a video game so the only option is the second hand market.

One point to note is that more and more game developers are now adding codes into the game packaging for DLC and online gameplay, so if you don't buy the game new then you are limited to what you get and the only way round this is to either buy it new or pay to get the extras via the relative network store, this is a way for them to get some income from the second hand market and it is becoming more and more popular as time goes by.

Anyone think that in 5-10 years time games will be sold / pushed more as digital downloads at a cheaper price than a tangible copy of the game? I certainly do....

[Mayhem]

* Feeling the burn*

I guess that the fact that the likes of CEX manage to make money from 2nd hand games creates jobs too.

Companies still pay tax and charge VAT on second hand game sales. So when you see the price in CEX or GAME, 20% of that amount is going back to the Government immediately, and the shop will pay whatever percentage of the sale in corporation tax on its earnings. I don't condone the low prices places offer for you trading your games in, but there are reasons why the resultant second hand price on the shelf can be a little high.

Either way, this is why I sell my games privately. I tend to get more for starters.

[Killingbeans]

Can't think of any industry that can seriously blame it's declining finances on the customer's ability to re-sell the products. Imagine buying a new car and being told by the car dealer, that you wouldn't be allowed to re-sell it. Ridiculous

When the game publishers wants us to believe that used game sales hurts them, it can be summed up in one word:

Greed

It has absolutely nothing to do with moral.

[BuckoA51]

The second hand car market is a poor analogy, cars are nothing like videogames.

I don't think either side of the argument is really thinking this through rationally. I think it's pretty clear in the short term that stopping second hand sales would have a positive effect on the games market. I don't really believe people who say "oh I sell all my games to buy new ones" I think it's more like they sell them to fund other second hand purchases most of the time. Still, who can blame them? Game and Gamestation push second hand so much that you can hardly even find new stock in there, and when you do its priced way higher than it is on Amazon or online retailers. Most times you are offered the second hand copy or reminded that you can trade in your games when you check out too.

The same game might be traded in dozens of times. Now, in the past, before that used to happen, most games got released twice, once at full price then again on budget. Even now you can wait and buy the new copy at a discount price. If stopping second hand even resulted in a 25% increase in people buying new, that would be a huge benefit to more niche titles like, well, basically anything other than Modern Warfare/COD etc.

Of course, the reason that there's so much money in second hand games sales is because there's so much demand. Games aren't like movies, for instance, that get a run at the cinema, then again on DVD/Blu ray to rent, then to buy, then later on TV supported by adverts. Games have that one window to claw back their money before usually fading into obscurity. A total lockout on used games wouldn't really hurt the kind of persoon who goes to Gamestation to trade in his used copy of Call of Warfare 3, it would hurt enthusiasts like us the most, people who want to collect, play, preserve and appreciate games when the mainstream have lost interest. So yeah, while cutting off the greedy, exploitative second hand trade in the likes of Game and Gamestation could give niche titles a boost, the long term effects are more depressing.

What I'd rather see is a partial lock on second hand, perhaps activation codes that can be purchased cheaply to re-activate second hand games. Game/Gamestation would then be forced to drop the prices of second hand games and stop exploiting the market while collectors could still be reasonably confident that they could buy and collect old games in the future. Then again, when Sony/Microsoft etc get bored of PS4/Xbox 720 who's going to be around to keep such a system running? It's clear to me that the industry needs to find more ways to monetize games beyond that one launch window, I just hope that we don't all end up in a crappy OnLive world due to publisher greed and short sightedness.

This gen I've bought approximately 2 games second hand, what's the point when you can get them new off Amazon a few months after launch for prices close to what Game/Gamestation want for the 2nd hand copies?

[Killingbeans]

The second hand car market is a poor analogy, cars are nothing like videogames.

To me it isn't. If I buy a product, nobody should be allowed to stop me from using it and try to re-sell it. No mater whether it's a car, a game or a toothpick.

If the game developers can't make games of high enough quality to make the buyers want to keep them, it's their headache not mine

[BuckoA51]

Okay, imagine buying a car that never wore out beyond a few tiny scuffs to the paintwork, never clocked up mileage and could be resold indefinitely, for close to the same price you paid for it in the first place. The company selling that car would probably go out of business. That's not even taking into account the fact that most people need cars indefinitely, not just for one play through.

[UltraMagnus]

Okay, imagine buying a car that never wore out beyond a few tiny scuffs to the paintwork, never clocked up mileage and could be resold indefinitely, for close to the same price you paid for it in the first place. The company selling that car would probably go out of business. That's not even taking into account the fact that most people need cars indefinitely, not just for one play through.

Same with games though. many are damaged, have the packaging lost, peeled labels etc and only go for very little. Many games connections corrode beyond repair or CD games are scratched beyond recognition.

And cars degrade as well and lose value. Cars that never clock up milage are the equivalent of games that have never been played and will go for a fortune due to rarity.

And if the car has no milage, then you will still need to buy a new car to drive as you will not be using the vintage car. As for being resold indefinitely, well only one person can actually own that car at a time, so all the other previous owners will need to go out and replace it. and just as many people want the latest version of a game, many people always want the latest model of a car even if they can get a pristine new one.

its the same for any item. not just cars, but CDS. Records, DVD's, etc.

[BuckoA51]

Not in the short term, a new title can be traded in dozens of times and indeed this does happen. The car analogy is deeply flawed. If you look after a game it can be resold indefinitely, if you look after a car it still breaks down eventually, requires maintenance, needs parts, fuel etc to run.

[UltraMagnus]

Not in the short term, a new title can be traded in dozens of times and indeed this does happen. The car analogy is deeply flawed. If you look after a game it can be resold indefinitely, if you look after a car it still breaks down eventually, requires maintenance, needs parts, fuel etc to run.

sorry, but no. A game can last indefinitely but it reaches a point where a game being sold 2nd hand stops affecting current games. the 2nd hand market developers are complaining about are people buying games for current systems and waiting for current games to become available 2nd hand instead of buying them new.

PS2, and Xbox games for example have no impact on new sales for PS3 and 360 whatsoever. the 2nd hand sales only affect the current system within its own lifespan.

So your theory of 2nd hand games affecting new sales indefinitely is flawed.

[BuckoA51]

I never made such a claim, read my original post on the matter. My point was that saying a car can be resold and the car market remains buoyant so obviously selling second hand games has no impact on the games market is a completely and utterly flawed argument.

[JokerJur]

If I buy a table and decide to sell it because I want another one, does anyone complain?

[Jet Set Radio Future]

This is going round in circles. Ill put my 2 pence in to be honest im not to botherd it just means the real deal will be cheaper.